"If it ain't broke don't fix it." Ehh.. let's try to anyway! A look at the history of save systems and how they can be used to improve the turnwheel mechanic going forward.
Support this Channel! plx and thx:
Thumbnail Character art by:
Turnwheel @ 1:28 from:
Linkking7's Youtube page:
Man, I recently finished Radiant Dawn for the first time on normal (hard) and... wow that game would have been not nearly as fun if I hadn't used save states. I really like to take my time with Fire Emblem games, but Radiant Dawn has this bad habit of punishing good tactics just because you're not using one of the games many (frankly) overpowered units. Having a save state every other turn to go back to really mitigated a lot of frustration that came from occasional bad luck or me just not knowing the systems my first time through. If not for the ability to skip resetting and saving my own time from mistakes that were more on a basis of the game's design rather than bad play, I don't know that I would have as much fun, let alone have the patience to restart some chapters (especially the early Dawn Brigade ones) multiple times.
Mila' turnwheel was my saviour. I didn't realize that SPOILER alm never gets hit by Rudolf. So my poor units kept getting crit on..
Mila's FIDGET SPINNER
Who the funk uses Mila's Turnwheel. .. only real Chad's play without the need of a reset.
I after I finish the game I realized the purpose of the turn wheel
Mila's turnwheel is the best thing since they added skills, the weapon triagnle, and allowing most units to have two promotion options.
I think I would just make it automatically refill, but slowly. Start off with 1 charge, then add another charge after each battle. If you used it twice, that's a net loss. Use it once, you break even. If you get through a battle without using it at all, that increases your safety net for future battles. Set a cap of, say, 6 charges. That way, if you have the max amount of charges saved up, you don't feel forced to hoard it.
Or something to that effect. IS can fiddle around with the numbers until it feels good.
Main uses for turn wheel are miscalcualting enemy damage, messing up enemy movement, 1% crit from en enemy, your 1% crit that allows more enemies to attack you, enemy witches, or the more likely use which is avoiding single stat level ups (more so on characters that should really be getting more than a single point 290% growth etc) although this is only]y necessary if they is super hard post game and a unit cannot be releveled later in the game.
For anyone who hates Mila’s turnwheel just use up all the uses reseting your first turn and then you won’t be able to use it anymore
I think on a lower difficulty (normal and below) a rewind based weapon shouldn’t take durability to use. I play FE in hard difficulty but I think games like awakening are most enjoyable on normal since either way it’s piss easy to exploit. I made a point in my first 3H play through to not rewind time unless I was rewinding to the start of the chapter and I enjoyed the game a ton. Love the idea.
TBH, enemies shouldn't have a crit chance. Even a 1% chance to instantly kill anyone they attack with nothing you can do about it (besides one-shotting them, I guess) is too much, causing too many resets for no real reason.
The turnwheel could definitely solve this, except I also don't believe it should change the outcomes of RNG, so it wouldn't solve anything.
I really like it! but despite playing fire emblem for a long time I'm still terrible at them so 20-30 is too few uses I say like 60!
I think this is a really good idea. The problem I've been noticing with 3H is that the divine pulse system doesn't incentivise better unit placement - it incentivises save scumming around knowledge of the rng., as if you were playing on an emulator. Couple this with some of the highly luck-based encounters in maddening and the game becomes less a question of whether you have a good enough strategy to beat the chapter, and more about remembering the sequence of hit/miss/crit, rewinding, and then taking the same moves in a different order. I think your solution could work; I also think that re-seeding the rng (though perhaps not for level-ups) with a limited turn wheel/divine pulse mechanic would be better than what we have now.
I just wish there was an "undo" for certain actions. In Three Houses, I usually use Divine Pulse when I accidentally rally/heal someone that the character cannot support with
I liked some of the FE 3DS DLC but it was wayyyyyy to over priced also as a casual mode noob who likes to have at least some room for mistakes (no I don't play on easy too) I think Millia's turn wheel is a great idea and helped my out a few times even in casual when I lost critical units I needed to win a fight in hard mode. Truth betold I'd like a mode between classic and causal that treats permadeath the Final Fantasy tactics way in otherwords you have 3 turns to save the oked person before they die only change I'd make to that is instead of instant revival you get a unit there to rescue them and get them off the battle feild and they can't be used in the next encounter but the one afterwords they'er back in action. I call this idea of mine Semi-Casual mode
Also when it comes to improveing the turn wheel why not give the players a choise on how much or few turns they want they want in it as a 3rd difficulty option on top of gameplay dificulty and Casual or classic mode? As what maybe extreamly gamebrakeing to you may extreamly helpfull to a newer less experienced player and reward those who pick the lower turn wheel options with bonus gold or a few extra wepons at the start. Like you have a beginner turnwheel with 12 and no bonus, experienced turnwheel with 6 and a bonuns of 5000 gold, and the Pro turnwheel that only has 3 rewinds but gives you 10000 gold and a B Teir sword, ax and Spear this way it has insentives for new players to eventualy take off the training wheels of the beginner version as the can get more stuff for their army that way!
I feel like the turnwheel should be left as is but there should be a mode where it limits your uses to 3 so then it will appeal to the Casual players with the regular mode and to the more experienced players with this new mode so they can experience the mechanic for themselves so that aren't missing out on the feature
A quick fix would be reduce the max usage /difficulty lvl for example. Easy 12, normal 9, hard 6 lunatic 3, lunatic+ 1
Chaz weird question, did you use to play kendama outside a coffee shop?
What if we just played final fantasy tactics instead
Divine pulse comes in handy when you die from that 1 in a thousand chance. And yes I am still salty having a character dying from an enemy hitting with a 1% chance to hit and a 1% crit chance and dying to a crit. Also it helps mitigate the games BS of random ambushes, lying about where enemies can go, how much damage stuff can do, a sudden meteor or two to the face when no enemy had meteor, or the oh so fun event where the condition changes invalidating what you just do and almost guarantees the death of your units do to the condition changing when you extended to finish the map.
I’d honestly be fine with the shadow dragon save system. That’s the best middleground in my opinion.
i think the divine pulse of three houses handles this quite well you have so many charges that can be used to roll the game back one action round or if you get to the end of your turn and its really botched you can use a few and restart your whole turn
I'm back 7 months later, what was the music at like 2:15 lol
How about instead of making the number very strict, instead limit how FAR you can rewind, and increasing its potency (and uses) as the game goes on. Another way would to implement a cooldown period, and not fully replenishing the counter after a chapter; instead replenishing a certain amuont after chapters.
Personally, I'd like taking a bit of Shadow Dragon's save system and mix it with Mila's Turnwheel. Start the map with 2 uses, and down save circles that give an extra use of the Turnwheel for that map only. You're not encouraged to hoard, it'd encourage casual players to send units to spread out their units more in order to grab extra uses, and experienced players / LTC will probably not go out of their way only for an extra use, especially if it means fighting more enemies that they could normally try and skip.
Weapon triangle DLC when???
What are all these jams playing in the background?
Btw are you trying to be sexy as hell in your vids?
Instead of one true solution have two:
Combine map saves and an item that can save and/or rewind not a weapon so that it can not be wasted by simply having it equipped by accident and probably most players wouldn’t use it as such cause the power of a save would far outweigh its use as a weapon even if it was the best one in the game, so that players don’t have to worry about wasting it cause their are going to be saves on the map for every map and they can use this item for times of higher tension but also if they do decide to be super paranoid about using it it doesn’t punish them to restart form the beginning
I legitimately can’t tell if you are serious or not in this videos...
4:18 Y-you can stop circle-jerking Geneology if you want, you know...
The only problem with not making it repairable is that no one will want to use it at all except for the most dire of situations, making it never be used as a weapon and possible never used ever similar to megalixers in final fantasy games. It would be better as a item similar to an Anti-Toxin with no ability to repair or a Weapon as discussed but with limited/expensive repair costs. This would allow the player to not feel bad about using as a weapon in needed situations, but also not feel afraid to use it and lose it. Psychologically it would serve as an item that will be used but sparingly due to limited availability.
Here's an idea, say there's a max item storage capacity like thracias 128 item slots (or whatever number). Why not link turnwheel/pulse charges to it for whatever (PLOT RELATED) reason. So every time you use it, you lose one of your max storage slots. This way when starting out, since you only have a few things, you feel like using it isn't a big deal. Then as you get later into the game and get more items, you start being more careful with it's uses as your at risk of not being able to get more stuff/be forced to sell other stuff.
Damn, you have good taste in music man
thanks for the theory - very interesting. in my opinion the perfect mechanic would simply be a turnwheel that only has 2 or 3 uses - capped. it just feels fine like that. the number of uses in later games like three houses gets fucking ridiculous. (what, like 12 or something??)
The first time I played Echoes, I didn’t know how to use it so I just played through the game on casual normal like a casual dumbass and got my ass handed to me cuz I’m not very good FE player.
Sorry I have nothing productive to add to Turnwheel. I’m a casual so I think the Turnwheel is perfect (usually I don’t run out of them since they’re the last thing I use as well).
As for the battle saves I did this for the first two chapters of fates but I always seemed to get the same exact luck, always miss the same attack, the enemy would always crit that same attack so after that I just stopped using them. Was boring as hell anyway.
I should remind you most players play on casual even the devs reset
Also saving shouldn't be locked to gameplay ever, sometimes things happen and people just need to go elsewhere
Fates rolls all rng at the beginning of a map, so saying that you can use battle saves to reset bad rng is decidely untrue. No matter how many times you reset, each level up will always go the same way, and that enemy will always dodge ur attack.
Tbh the first time I used the turnwheel was yesterday lmao
And then Three Houses gave you 50 million jillion Divine Pulses in Normal/Hard and all difficulty was thrown out the window.
While I'd generally prefer to KISS and just cut it down to 3 uses with no upgrades, here's my Chrono Blade idea for Three Houses in particular:
DP is only available when Byleth is deployed;
Byleth starts with 1 charge of DP per map, possibly loses it when picking up the Sword of the Creator;
Any DP beyond the initial charge drains SotC durability by 3-5 (possibly depending on difficulty);
SotC still regenerates on Rest actions, but cannot be repaired.
This means that excessive DP now requires you to take generally inferior Rest actions, harming your long game, but it's still technically not burning irreplaceable resources if you really need it.
I think that the mechanic isn’t too gamebreaking; it doesn’t really remove the difficulty as it simply stated avoids the need to hard reset. Hard resetting achieves the same thing but takes longer and is frustrating
I think you have the same vocal chords, as Mathew Mercer...
i forgot about the turnwheel and ended up beating the game without using it
i usually just soft reset for a new rng seed rather than use divine pulse. divine pulse doesn't change your rng seed so unless you go back multiple turns and then play those turns extremely differently you're going to end up getting roughly the same results.
I agree with this. I was taken by surprise in echoes when the turn wheel reset every mission. Was expecting it to be a very very important item needed for the one of the tough bosses in the game but instead it ended up being similar to Phoenix mode. Don’t get me wrong the game is insanely hard on max difficulty if you don’t grind and the turn wheel ends up becoming a necessity for that, but it changes the concept of what makes fire emblem what it is. Echoes will still be one of my favorite fire emblem games :)
Mila's Turnwheel should stay per chapter but stay at a stagnant 3 uses per whatever the fuck.
That thumbnail is a fallacy. There is literally nothing in any Fire emblem game that couldn’t be double lioned out of
Brilliant, high-quality vidye gaem content, cheers.
The save thing as a resource is kinda cool....me like...
The turnwheel should have a limited amount of used throughout the entire game.
I say around 5 uses for maddening, 10 for hard and 20 for normal mode.
Abyssal.... well... still 5.
Just do Shadow Dragon and FE12 save points. It makes makes going through long maps and dying randomly a lot less painful. Especially in those two games reinforcements can just pop out and kill someone.
mila's turnwheel or divine pulse is just loading an older save
My idea for the turn wheel is that perhaps instead of limiting uses, they limit the effectiveness of it, where it could only go back a turn or two. Perhaps they could also implement some idea like you said where the main lord has a blade that could “stamp” a turn so that it can always be accessed. EX: On turn 10 you use a weapon use to stamp the turn, and on turn 16 your favorite unit dies, you have the option of returning to turn 15, or 10. I think this could have the tension that traditional save states have, while also reducing some of the frustrating aspects of reloading a save
On that note, wild theory to throw. The Turnweel is essentially Valentia’s Fire Emblem
Every time I see Genealogy of the Holy War the graphical style triggers nostalgia for Ogre Battle: March of The Black Queen.
I would like it if it was just like the Geneology save at the start of the turn while also preventing rng stat abuse just like the turnwheel
Double lions don't work alm
I had a vary similar idea for how to fix it when Mila's first came in, I think having a campaign wide pool of uses is a much better system then a map by map basis.
Although, if I'm being completely honest I wish in three houses we were simply given the choice to turn the mechanic off when starting up a new game. I'd rather not have it available and take the game on with the no reset, fight to the bitter end mentality, because taking that kind of an approach has led to some of the most fun and memorable FE adventures I've had. Not knowing that Shadows of Valentia has increased bow range, and having your cleric die 2 turns after recruiting her turned Alms story into a blood bath that only 4 characters survived to the end.
I get the argument of "Just don't use it" but that takes a lot of willpower for how easy the mechanic is to use. Simply being able to toggle it off would be a really nice and easy addition for those who want it.
Though I would prefer to have a campaign wide pool of uses, I do feel like that's the best-case scenario.
fe4 would have a perfect system if all of the rng was decided at the beginning of the turn for everything but i recognize the snes probably isn’t powerful enough for the and the best fire emblem was limited by the technology of its time.
Enough baby tier discussion, the solution is here: Money gated map saves, and hard saves for that matter too. You wanna save? 1 USD plus tax please. Can't afford? L M A O go play a free game or something.
I like this idea but I think it shouldn't be the same as the lord's prf. Prfs should be repairable imo, because they're immensely useful in the earlygame when your units don't have the stats to compete with the enemy.
I think a better option would be to make you have to create a save state first, then the rewind would bring you to that save. The RNG would save all level ups and out comes so you could reroll anything. Lowering the limit per map would help too
2:20 Ichiran Midtown!!!
It's just nice as hell to have imo. Restarting a long ass chapter due to a small mistake or bad rng is annyoing as hell. I was doing a Hard mode run of Awakening recently, and had a unit die to the final enemy on a long map becuase he got a 2% crit off. Like fuck off, just give me the turn wheel from here on out. Just make it only 3 or so uses so you can't use it as a band-aid for bad strategy.
Fire Emblem: Sword of Ages.
It's not like I hate it but Fire Emblem lately has been on the route of weapons not breaking so your plan backfires cuz why would they put one weapon in the game that has uses just to save I think that's why they're bringing the Mila's wheel back because it makes more sense as a key item to help you through the game a little bit easier I get to many uses so basically just reduce that otherwise instead of a weapon why not introduce a time mage class give us some new classes.
god forbid the game respects the time constraints of busy college students
Me laughing in Tactics Ogre Let Us Cling Together
Well for the people that were bitching about it, all they had to do was just NOT USE IT
After playing Three Houses and replaying Echoes, I definely agree with this idea. Divine Pulse/Turnwheel should be an emergency, like when one of your characters die to a miscalculation right at the end of a chapter (like one time my Leo died in conquest because I didn't notice the boss had Countermagic). When you give the player 12 uses plus the fact that both Echoes and Three Houses lack large maps, they start using them for other things, like seeing if your crit will land against a certain enemy, or seeing if lethality will proc against the other, and when your cheese tactics don't work, you go back in time and do another action to change the RNG and try again. This isn't something a strategy game should incentivize you to do, specially Fire Emblem, which is a game about minimizing risks.
Make the game harder and then put back in bonus XP. So every time you use it, you are sacrificing XP
I'm a bit late to the party but it really felt like "classic" doesn't give service to permadeath when you can reload or savescum anyway. The addition of turnwheel/divine pulse is a nice way to dissuade people from resetting and savescumming. I feel like with its addition, every death on a classic run should force a save. You'd either be forced to stick with the death or use a rewind charge. Save slot should also be limited to one for classic mode.
couldn't someone theoretically make a GBA mod with this kind of weapon?
I’m leaving this comment in order for there to be 666 comments
"and ultimately, yourself"
I really hope you were meming when you said that.
Now I want a Chrono Trigger/Fire Emblem crossover with the Chrono Blade
That ferroelectric shit should have been in gen 3 pokemon. So many times i lost an important moment cause my dumbass didnt save and my batteries died
wow i din't know something before 3 houses had a rewind. i was kinda worried they might decide not to keep it but this eases that worry a little
I was so thinking abotu Tear Ring when it popped up. I just got the second save staff from underneath that annoying eyeball spawning boss in the swamp!
Fun fact about the turn wheel: the developers of SoV have said that it resembled of the Antikythera mechanism. This device was found off of a greek island called Antikythera after being in a shipwreck for nearly 2000 years. The Antikythera mechanism was an analogue computer that can predict the positions of the sun, moon, planets (that they knew at the time), eclipses, and the 12 zodiac constellations. It also had a solar calendar that was based off of the Egyptian calendar (12 months, 30 days each, and 5 extra days). And to top it all off the calendar also functioned around the brightest star in the night sky named Sirius ( Seirios in greek) which in Egypt was the goddess Sopdet (Sothis in greek).
It's not a bad idea, but I'm not sure if it's better than simply not increasing the rewind charges at 3, and maybe giving a small cash reward for unused charges. The problem is that first time players won't know how hard the upcoming maps will be, or even how many there are. This means players will either overly hoard the charges, rendering the system ineffective, or they risk running out once the, ideally most difficult, endgame starts.
Either that, or make the sword 10 durability but regaining 1 or 2 uses up to its maximum after every map. That way you can strategically deploy uses on specific maps, but aren't incentiviced to hoard them.
I do like the idea but i'd say like a item that refreshes Every 2 chapter but is 5 uses for the 2 chapters and if it breaks it is gone for good so it is hard but good enoth
The kinda fundamental problem here is that the player doesn't know how hard the game will get at a future point in time, and the devs aren't sure how hard the player is going to find the game at a particular point in time.
With your idea, it falls down for a large number of players because the player doesn't know there will be say, 20 maps, they don't know if they are hitting a difficulty spike or just a smooth curve, they don't know whether the weapon can be repaired, they don't know whether the weapon is actually good in the endgame or whether there will be better ones. It's rough to strategise because you don't know what the tradeoff you are making actually is.
So most casual players will just never use the weapon, and they may well even quit the game in frustration instead of using the weapon (assuming that 'if I have to make the endgame harder for myself now to survive and it's only chapter 15, how will I ever beat the final level???') Another set of players will have the opposite problem, they'll use the weapon up really early just fooling around, and then suddenly hit a brick wall when the bad habits they taught themselves don't work any more.
The dev side of it is also challenging. The reason why Divine Pulse etc has such an inflated set of uses is basically... the devs just don't know how much players will be needing it at a given point. The inclination is to err on the side of caution.
IMO I think the right answer is to just let players choose how much trouble they are having. Give hardcore players an option to radically reduce the number of uses (say, to 1/mission, or persistent like with your suggestion - which I can see working well with NG+ since then you already know the difficulty curve) as part of difficulty selection. Give casual players an ability to go and request more uses of the rewind, for example as a Pray to the Goddess activity in the between battle period of the game that would give them 5 more uses of the rewind in the next battle, say. Automatically give players more uses of rewind on a reset. Boom, hopefully everyone's happy...
I’m glad you added ‘casual only’ for the Fates and awakening battle saves, I was playing Fates while watching and was about to feel really dumb until I read that. This is a classic only household.
Haven't picked up three houses yet, did they fix it?
For me, the turnwheel sort of feels...I don't know. It's a weird topic, because i would say like 85%+ of the FE fanbase resets IMMMEDIATELY upon losing a unit except in rare circumstances. Chances are, if you reset not that much is going to change as you work your way back to the place you were before, unless it was like ambush spawns or just a fundamental flaw in tactics that had to be accounted for. Your stats wont change, your inventory and convoy are still the same, you still have the same units, its just you're taking a good 20 minutes, give or take, to get back to the same point you were before. And of course there's the screwy RNG deaths like crits or improbable misses, which everyone hates to have to reset over. While mechanics like the turnwheel definitely make the game easier, I think it improves the flow of a playthrough enough to justify its existence due to cutting down on dead time from resets (like say, you're a half hour into a map, suddenly an enemy crits at a low chance and your unit dies, to no fault of your own due to the sheer improbability of it)
Now, as for how many times you can use it, i do like the idea of being able to purchase charges (up to 3) with gold. Another suggestion would be to rewind only to the turn of the unit that had died, and for you to be able to change ohly their move , though implementing that might be hard. It would suitably limit you from being able to abuse it though. And if another unit dies due to the firat one fleeing, then there goes 2 of the charges you just bought for, say, 5000+ gold. Each.
As dumb as this sounds, I think it would be cool to just have the Mila's turnwheel mechanic but instead of getting more and more uses, the number of turnwheel uses is tied to the difficulty level at which the game is being played. For instance, perhaps on easy, you get 5 uses per level, no more, no less for the rest of the game. Whereas on a Lunatic mode, you might have 1 or no uses of said mechanic per level throughout the entire game.
Even with 10+ charges of Divine Pulse, one of the story missions, and a few of the Paralouges were just dumb on maddening. Mostly same turn reinforcements with no warning whatsoever. Basically, any time you can't plan for something, and a unit(s) dies, is poor game design.
Song at 2:30?
Mila's turn wheel should of been either one of these:
1 Use per map so you could reverse BS moments
have a fixed amount for the entire game.
20 for easy/normal
10 for normal/hard
1-5 for lunatic
I think either of these options could do it perfect as for option 1,
it's just one reverse per map which is more than enough for a BS moment that an enemy lucky crits. if you need more uses, you are just bad at the game and should probably do a lower difficulty.
For option 2
it more of like how it was said in the video except in higher difficulties it has less uses encouraging more strategic gameplay and require to be like one of those "should I use one of my uses to re-roll a level up or save a character or just let him die or reset?" types of situations. although I must admit that 20-30 is way too much uses because if you really need that much of uses, just play on causal noob xD.
Biorythm's actually good because it gives you an incentive to have at least one unit competent who's not Titania for the odd time when she has less than 90 hit because of it. Mmmhmm. Definitely. Maybe.
All kidding aside I've been playing through PoR for the first time and I actually kinda like it, it's a fairly believable representation of fatigue and rewards you if you use it well but you could also just ignore it because it's not a big deal.
Also Shadow Dragon Map save tiles. Just them. Or a turnwheel you get charges for on tiles like that. Yeah.
They need to offer a mode where it doesn't exist. Make it an option which you chose at the very start of a run.
“Best thing since... the weapon triangle?”
FE3H: Divine Pulse
Also FE3H: removes weapon triangle
To the Players that don't like features that help new players: no one's forcing you to use these features. Imagine you are completely new to the series. You go into battle and lose a unit to the boss. Now imagine having to redo the WHOLE BATTLE to get back to that point, only to potentially lose that unit again. Frustrating, isn't it? These features serve to get newbies accustomed to the series. Without these, fire emblem might see way less new players. Hell, maybe awakening would have flopped without casual mode helping pull new players in. Then, the ENTIRE FRANCHISE WOULD'VE DIED RIGHT THEN AND THERE.
In conclusion: if you don't like these features, don't use them, but don't try to tell everyone that they shouldn't use them if they need to.
If it was like this I'd totally save all my 30 uses for the final map just in case I need them there.
And then you forget to switch to a normal weapon and use half of its charges on one enemy phase.